tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post8451855669967046206..comments2024-01-28T03:35:51.182-05:00Comments on Reassigned Time: Wow. Just Wow.Dr. Crazyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12457967076373916629noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-15629015361326536892009-04-08T23:40:00.000-04:002009-04-08T23:40:00.000-04:00As happy as I am for you, stories like this are am...As happy as I am for you, stories like this are among the reasons I am glad to be on a union campus, both from the perspective of making salary, etc. subject to something other than individual negotiation and fending off imposition of things like "merit" pay.Shaun Hustonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05374693213232236154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-71503704981048006312009-04-08T20:58:00.000-04:002009-04-08T20:58:00.000-04:00Susan wrote upthread a bit:"I suspect there are al...Susan wrote upthread a bit:<BR/><BR/>"I suspect there are also class issues in play about negotiating salary."<BR/><BR/>I think you're right, but I'm wondering which classes you think are less likely to negotiate. What was interesting to me in looking at the report was that it appeared that it was people from primarily middle and upper-middle class backgrounds that didn't negotiate, whereas people with less moneyed backgrounds did seem to negotiate. This was surprising to me because the whole "negotiating" thing is not typically associated with working-class folks - typically, people seem to think that working-class folks feel grateful for what they're offered, and take what is offered. I think that this is often true outside academia (I think about my mom's experiences throughout her working life), but I wonder how the pendulum might shift within academia on this. <BR/><BR/>I think (though this is only a random and not thoroughly considered thought) that it's possible that in academia the reverse might be true: that people who come from more money come to the profession thinking that it is a "calling" (and they've got less loan debt, or they've got some family money to start them off) and so they think that it would be gauche to negotiate for more. In contrast, people who come into the profession from lower class backgrounds (or even from middle class backgrounds with less family support) really do need to make a certain amount to sustain their debt (or their wish to incur debt through buying a house) and so they do negotiate when others offered the same job might not. <BR/><BR/>I don't know. I think that the model that we have for negotiating salary is a model that started with men who needed to negotiate for more to support stay-at-home-wives and their children, whereas I think the model now might be about people (male or female) who need to negotiate for more just to support themselves.<BR/><BR/>Again, I haven't thought it through thoroughly, but I'd be interested to hear what you thought.Dr. Crazyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12457967076373916629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-78851026834045014922009-04-08T20:47:00.000-04:002009-04-08T20:47:00.000-04:00Ann wrote:"My main point is that being articulate ...Ann wrote:<BR/><BR/>"My main point is that being articulate advocates for themselves can backfire because of the conscious and unconscious biases we all bring to the table when evaluating women and men. I think the world goes around because women essentially do a hell of a lot of volunteer work, and that's still the baseline assumption in our culture--that women should work for free, or be grateful for the 78 cents on the dollar they get and shut up about it."<BR/><BR/>I'm not going to disagree with you on this. In fact, I'd probably say that the reason that I've been viewed as suitably "feminine" and "appropriate" (in spite of the whole advocating for myself re: money thing) is pretty complex. 1) I'd say that I've had to make a real effort to be very visible in terms of being a "team player" and in terms of service. Things that get you absolutely nothing compensation-wise, but that do make it less threatening when you are the only junior faculty member in a generation to produce a book before tenure. 2) I think it helped that people know I'm from a working-class background, I'm single, and that I've got no family support in terms of money. I suspect if I were married and/or if I had a different background, my assertiveness in these things would be viewed as inappropriate. 3) I have no doubt that if I didn't break my back with teaching and service stuff that my research wouldn't be regarded as an asset at all in my context. I think that it would be regarded totally negatively. As it is, I suspect they view my research as a "bonus" - as something that is nice given the fact that I'm a "good girl" in other areas.<BR/><BR/>So again, I see exactly where you're coming from, and I do think that you've got a point. I suppose I'm wondering about how to negotiate that from within the system, though, and whether there is a map for doing so. I suppose I'm not content to say that there's no way around the status quo (though often there isn't).Dr. Crazyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12457967076373916629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-91686186047576303772009-04-08T17:09:00.000-04:002009-04-08T17:09:00.000-04:00LoaF: You're right to qualify what I said. Of cou...LoaF: You're right to qualify what I said. Of course saying "I would just like more money" without any sort of rationale isn't good no matter who does it. I think that what I'm thinking about, though, is about what type of rationale works, and what kind of negotiating strategy works.<BR/><BR/>Example. Let's say a candidate gets the offer. He is male, and he goes to the table to negotiate. For that candidate, coming to the table with a request for 5K more and then a laundry list of why he'd be great for the institution might work. Let's say the candidate is female, though. I wonder whether the better strategy might be to do a ton of research and to frame the request not in terms of what she can bring to the institution so much as how to make the offer reasonable within the constraints of the budget. I'm not arguing here, by the by, that women should negotiate less - just perhaps that the tone of successful negotiations may be different... I don't know. I may be full of it on this one.Dr. Crazyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12457967076373916629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-64452673188057746322009-04-08T17:07:00.000-04:002009-04-08T17:07:00.000-04:00Your point about "feminine" versus "masculine" sty...Your point about "feminine" versus "masculine" styles is interesting, Dr. C., but I'm doubtful. I think even just presuming to negotiate will be held against women by some people. Life of a Fool makes a good point--even most men who approach salary negotiations without a rationale are likely to be laughed out of the room. (At least I hope they would be!)<BR/><BR/>My main point is that being articulate advocates for themselves can backfire because of the conscious and unconscious biases we all bring to the table when evaluating women and men. I think the world goes around because women essentially do a hell of a lot of volunteer work, and that's still the baseline assumption in our culture--that women should work for free, or be grateful for the 78 cents on the dollar they get and shut up about it.<BR/><BR/>I should add: I'm really glad you wrote about this. I did something similar a few years ago, and it was liberating in many ways! And I think we should talk about money, because not talking about it is a class privilege most of us don't actually have.<BR/><BR/>Historiann.comHistoriannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615954696251174822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-76648318432950100372009-04-08T16:33:00.000-04:002009-04-08T16:33:00.000-04:00Framing a request for a higher salary in terms of ...Framing a request for a higher salary in terms of just wanting to get more, rather than the value to the institution, is never a good idea though, is it? <BR/><BR/>(I agree this would be an interesting post).life_of_a_foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05427532203981697246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-77027138128090179832009-04-08T16:31:00.000-04:002009-04-08T16:31:00.000-04:00My institution also has two pots of money (standar...My institution also has two pots of money (standard and merit), but the merit-- I'm pretty sure -- is a fixed amount not a percentage (though what the fixed amount is depends on your "merit.") So, myself and a senior person would, assuming equal "merit scores," get the same $ increase in raises even though my salary is lower. So, your raises get smaller over time, in terms of percentage of your salary. <BR/><BR/>Your basic point about things adding up, though, is spot on, even here.life_of_a_foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05427532203981697246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-48556510085410313032009-04-08T16:26:00.000-04:002009-04-08T16:26:00.000-04:00Interesting point, Ann. You know, I wonder whethe...Interesting point, Ann. You know, I wonder whether it would be worth doing a post about negotiating styles in this context. In my experience, I've seen women do much better when they appear to be looking for equitable pay as opposed to "the most they can get." I know that's how I couched my initial negotiations - as being about equitable treatment in terms of salary figures that I produced via my research - and not as wanting more just for the sake of wanting more. In other words, I wonder whether negotiating in a "feminine" way is more successful than in following the typical "masculine" advice about how to negotiate?Dr. Crazyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12457967076373916629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-90248600431947122142009-04-08T15:41:00.000-04:002009-04-08T15:41:00.000-04:00Crazy, good for you--and you make a compelling cas...Crazy, good for you--and you make a compelling case for the importance of that bump for future raises. <BR/><BR/>Although I would always always always encourage people to negotiate, I think that negotiation is looked upon favorably as a gender-appropriate thing for men to do, but that it's not regarded as such for women. So although I still think it's worth it to be thought a bitch (instead of a savvy negotiator, which is what they'd say about a man) and get more money, there may be intangible career after-effects down the road. <BR/><BR/>But, even still: grab the money while it's on the table. <BR/><BR/>Historiann.comHistoriannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615954696251174822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-27024671530129945772009-04-08T14:29:00.000-04:002009-04-08T14:29:00.000-04:00Thanks for posting this - you are right that it is...Thanks for posting this - you are right that it is so important to talk about money but yet people are often reluctant to do so. I have no idea what I make in comparison with my peers in my department (though I know I'm on pretty much the lowest salary at this institution, I don't know how many other people are on the same money too). Our department gives fixed amounts for merit - there are several categories and you get something between $0 and $1500 or so, depending on how meritorious you have been. But the percentage thing clearly works very much in your favour.Fifi Bluestockinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16397767933724126421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-71966904654009711802009-04-08T14:05:00.000-04:002009-04-08T14:05:00.000-04:00I'd add that most of the 'job market' books encour...I'd add that most of the 'job market' books encourage those with offers to ask. As you said, the worst that can happen is they say no. A thousand must be the standard walking around money deans have to give to new hires. My sense is that to go higher than about a thousand you've got to be a really good negotiator or be someone the university is dying to have.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03413553265267291092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-20736547962466369472009-04-08T13:45:00.000-04:002009-04-08T13:45:00.000-04:00I suspect there are also class issues in play abou...I suspect there are also class issues in play about negotiating salary. You were always clear that this was (in part) a job. But I think you discussion here is admirable, and should be widely read. It's sort of like the power of compound interest.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716705206734059708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-37871080754825588922009-04-08T12:52:00.000-04:002009-04-08T12:52:00.000-04:00Thanks. I needed this exact thing today, as I'm h...Thanks. I needed this exact thing today, as I'm having the argument with myself about "now that I'm tenured, do I really still need to devote so much of the summer to research and writing in pursuit of the full professorship in a timely manner?" The answer is yes, yes I still do.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00745260466541309506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-33307179149669850052009-04-08T12:29:00.000-04:002009-04-08T12:29:00.000-04:00In my dept, we typically do the raise pool half do...In my dept, we typically do the raise pool half dollar amount/half percentage, because the admin. requires that there be at least that much of the pool that goes toward merit pay. In other words, typically everybody gets a little something of a raise, but that half apportioned on the basis of "merit" appears (from what I can gather) to go to people who've accomplished something easily quantifiable (in most cases, that means publication) in that year. If you spend enough years just getting that across-the-board raise, your salary basically stagnates, or in terms of cost of living, goes down. Now, the amount of merit pay I've gotten has never exceeded 3%, but if I'm getting 3% on top of the across-the-board raise that worked out to about 3% of my base, that means I get a 6% raise that year. In contrast, colleagues who don't get the merit bump are only getting half the raise I get. Consider that I've gotten something for merit every year I've worked here, and then put me alongside somebody who got merit only half of those years. When I get merit pay now it then means more than when they do (a) and it also means that they've missed out on something like a 5-8% bump (if we add all of those merit raises together that they might have gotten in 3 years' time) (b). Looked at that way, even getting 1.5% or 1% for merit in lean years is HUGE, and over time does make a demonstrable difference. The mistake is thinking about those percents in isolation and not seeing how they add up over time - a mistake a lot of people make. They figure that they may as well just phone it in and not produce because they won't see obvious material gain for producing consistently. This also then puts them in a bad position in terms of marketability elsewhere, which also affects earning potential. No, none of us are going to become millionaires in this profession, but that doesn't mean that we should give up on increasing our paychecks.Dr. Crazyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12457967076373916629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20099192.post-35892759483956166972009-04-08T12:12:00.000-04:002009-04-08T12:12:00.000-04:00thanks for making me feel better about the $1k bum...thanks for making me feel better about the $1k bump I negotiated. :) At least some of our raises are fixed dollar amounts, not percentages, but still. . .life_of_a_foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05427532203981697246noreply@blogger.com